Hypnobooru

Mindwipe

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 02:08

The Hypno-Site of the Future?

From the original discussion:

BluRider said:
Nobody has time for anything these days, but I think my may have access to a programmer or two who is willing to make time for a good cause. I've also dabbled, myself. I think the important thing is to take the first step... so I have gone ahead and done so.

If you can get your hands on a decent domain, I can get us about a full day of an experienced programmer's time. What this means is, we can get a custom website running professional social image sharing software, but we can't go adding too much in the way of features yet: he'll set us up something that works for our immediate purposes, and we will be in touch in the future to add new features (plus people like StemCell might be willing to devote a day or two themselves, to improving the site code).

If we want to take him up on it, it will have to be reasonably soon (i.e. within 10 days), but here's what he's offering:

1. An image sharing website custom-built for our purposes, based on the ZenPhoto CMS ( http://www.zenphoto.org/ ).

2. Support for both image and story content, plus a news section, built in blog, and support for other custom pages.

3. A sexy, modern user interface. Have a look here, for how the pages of the site will look: http://oswebcreations.com/zenphoto-themes/zpmasonry/

4. Support for tagging, user permission levels, content ratings, categories, commenting on artwork (and writing), as well as plug-in support for all kinds of customization and additional features in future.

5. RSS for new content, backup and restore feature (in case the site gets deleted), automatic updates (to fix bugs), statistics for most viewed, top rated, most commented, etc., as well as the most popular tags.

6. Automatic spam filtering in comments, CAPTCHAs for security, automatic compression of oversize images (optional), "protected" pages for members only (e.g. loli content).

6. Fully searchable image library, including search-by-artist and search-by-resolution alongside the normal search by tag stuff.

7. A full suite of admin tools for managing the above, giving us total control of the site.

I don't know about you, but that sounds like the hypno-site of the future to me... and precisely what I think the community needs right now. There's plenty of chans, groups and boorus and such where we can place hypno content: even the loli stuff that started this thread can technically go on Lolibooru under the hypnosis or mind_control tags, and stories could be sent to Piper's Domain. MC Stories has the regular stories; Sleepychan has artist threads and IRL hookups; DA-Entranced offers a supportive community for new artists and writers to hone their skills and/or explore their interests; Hypnobooru covers everything else.

So what's missing? Why do I want to see something brand new appear? Well, here's my answer: I would also like to hear your own, below.

I think what's missing is a place where all of the above is possible, but the focus is on sharing and discussing quality original work, with facilities for artists and writers to post, share, discuss, grow and improve, and all the modern conveniences like RSS, twitter feeds and so forth.

In short, I want a one-stop shop for hypno-news, art, writing and community, I want to be able to watch an RSS feed for new content I am interested in (instead of visiting a bunch of different sites twice a day, many of which never seem to update), and most of all I want to see more original art, stories with a real plot, and quality manips. I don't care if that means male/male stuff, loli stuff or My Little Pony stuff: when it gets posted, it should get tagged, and everyone who likes that kind of thing should see it. As for amateur works that don't meet the quality criteria, there should be links to all the major sites. As for commercial works that aren't legal to repost, there should be links to the creators' sites. As for anything else that's happening in the community – if, say, somebody throws a contest or a new issue of Squid Ops has come out – I want to see that kind of thing right there under "News".

That's what I want out of a new hypno-site, and I feel like this offering could give us exactly what I've been after.

I am only one man, though, so I ask you:

When you imagine the "big new hypno-site" of your dreams, what exactly is it that you want from it, and does the option I outlined above offer (or potentially offer in future, through a plug-in) what you want?

Let's discuss, get everybody's thoughts in here, and make a decision soon. Hopefully, we can all get at least some of what we want, and one or two more weeks from now we'll have the seed of the new hypno-hub of the future.

For that matter, I quite like the name "HypnoHub"... or, in honour of the fallen HypnoChan, perhaps a name like "HypnoClan". What would you name your ideal site, and what would be on it?

We've 10 days and counting to make a decision and to lay the groundwork, starting now, so let's get some traction in this thread.

Over to you.

Mindwipe

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 02:09

Reposting my reply:

Wow. That is a lot more functionality than I expected. I feel like I have a dozen questions of my own buzzing in my head right now, and I'm not sure how to put them into text. I think the biggest thing, for me, is: how comparable to a booru will the image board portion be? I stand by my statement that boorus are unbeatable for image sharing, and while I would certainly love all the extra features this would give us, I don't want to lose the features we already have. Otherwise, it feels like an upgrade with an asterisk. Could users still blacklist tags to hide content they don't want to see? What about things like child posts? Could we still link images together so things like comic pages stay together? How about notes? Would we have to forget about translated images?

I need more time to gather my thoughts. I didn't expect to be thinking about "the hypno-site of the future". This would be a major step up from what we're doing here. This site was never meant to be a hub for the hypnofetish community. When Vanndril and I created this site, it was just meant to be a supplement to Hypnochan. A place to store all the images that would inevitably begin auto-saging and eventually be deleted, while also making them easily-searchable. I didn't expect the whole place to go kaput mere weeks after we unveiled it.

I guess thinking about all this just has me slightly overwhelmed. I need a moment. ^^'

BluRider

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 04:06

You're right that while it would have some great features, there's no way a totally new site could compare with something like a booru's in terms of the total number of features. We'd still need the booru for translations, child posts, etc. That said, posting whole manga and so forth is best left to this site anyway, yeah? Or maybe people could post a ZIP to the new site, meaning visitors could download the whole set at once (which I, actually, prefer).

To see the features this platform does have in action, you need only check out any site running ZenPhoto (or click the "demo" button on their site to play with the admin interface).

Eager to hear people bandy about their own ideas - and of course, I'm not sold on ZenPhoto: it was just the best suggestion I have heard so far. Perhaps someone else has another free CMS in mind whose featureset is even more perfect?

Mindwipe

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 04:20

BluRider said:
We'd still need the booru for translations, child posts, etc.

Then, wouldn't that kinda defeat the purpose? I thought the new site was supposed to be a "one-stop shop for hypno-news, art, writing and community". If we still have to rely on the booru for images, then it's not one stop at all. This is one of the biggest things I'm worried about. I don't want a site that's a jack of all trades, but a master of none. At that point, we've just added ANOTHER hypno-site into the pile, rather than making the be-all end-all one.

Lunakiri

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 06:13

Mindwipe said:

Then, wouldn't that kinda defeat the purpose? I thought the new site was supposed to be a "one-stop shop for hypno-news, art, writing and community". If we still have to rely on the booru for images, then it's not one stop at all. This is one of the biggest things I'm worried about. I don't want a site that's a jack of all trades, but a master of none. At that point, we've just added ANOTHER hypno-site into the pile, rather than making the be-all end-all one.

Wut he said.

Vanndril

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 08:57

While the idea in general seems awesome, and it would certainly be fun to try and amazing if we succeed, there are a few concerns that should be addressed and questions that should be answered.

1: Information on the programmer(s) and what they're willing to do. I mean, are they getting paid or are they doing this out of personal interest/the kindness of their heart/as a favor? Just how close does the gallery system have to be to what it is based on? If we don't get the features we will need in the long run immediately, will we be able to count on their aid later on on implementing them, when time allows (and sooner rather than later)? Just how much can we rely on them in the future of this project?

2: Going by the demo, the gallery system linked to does not quite work out as we would need. A handful of essential features are reversed/missing:

A: For one, it's gallery based. While that's fine, I personally know many people who enjoy just going through page-by-page of unsorted images, myself being one as well. Galleries would ruin that. What I'd love to see is a main index that contains every image posted, and then galleries used in place of this booru's child post system (similar to Gelbooru's pool system, I suppose). This would mean that the image is displayed in the gallery (pool) it belongs to as well as the index. Bonus points for allowing an image to belong to multiple galleries at the same time, to even more closely imitate Gelbooru's pool system. What could be done about that?

B: A tag blacklist is a must. An absolute must. I mean, lacking that alone makes me very hesitant to even bother trying to run the site over the booru. I'm sort of just assuming the demo gallery doesn't have one.

C: Individual image comments. I don't know if they can be done. Maybe I didn't look closely enough, as I didn't see it on the demo. But this, too, is a must, especially if it's to be a social site with a gallery.

D: An account-based favorites list for both images and stories. Because it really is a useful feature.

E: Image "like" system. Not a rating like we have on the booru (if you don't like it, don't vote it up - voting down is silly), just a "like" count. Bonus points for the like button to be the same button that adds it to the favorites list.

F: Image-overlayed notes, again much like this booru's note feature. If this site is to replace the booru, we NEED this feature.

Now, I know that this seems like a lot of features to add to a gallery system on a site that doesn't focus on solely the gallery, but if we're to have an all-in-one community site for this fetish, it better damned well not lack on the method of properly sharing the content we're there to be a community for, ya know? Personally, the gallery would need to be the most impressive part of the site to have Mindwipe's full support, since he's totally hesitant. :P Of course, I'm the same.

The main concern is indeed that this project will just end up as "another hypnosis site". This can't be allowed to happen. Not even temporarily, as I can bet you everything that people will lose interest if it isn't a golden city-hub of hypnofetish from day one, and it would never fully grow to its potential due to that even if it ever were complete.

Now, with my concerns for the site itself settled as far as this post goes, I'd like to bring up another concern on the host level. It's a long shot, for sure, but has anyone here had any experience with http://www.hostgator.com/ ? It's still the host I would consider using for this, should we go through with it. However, my experience with paid hosting is INCREDIBLY limited, as are my funds (and I'd be paying for the host out-of-pocket, and I'd only be able to afford their cheapest plan, most likely - that's just the reality of it all), so if anyone with any greater experience would verify that that's a good choice, it would be appreciated. Otherwise, I'd also like to know any other hosts one would recommend that YOU HAVE PERSONALLY USED (you - meaning the reader). They must allow adult material and loli/shota content, with no rule against bestiality or the like.

CCCM89

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 09:25

I'm all for moving things to a new, expanded site, just as long as we don't lose any of the content we have up already. If we do move, I can foresee a lot more original content, and of course if we move, we'll need a link to the new site somewhere that is very, very noticeable.

Digitalgame

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 09:51

I'm just wondering what this new site would be called as I'm all for moving, but like cccm89 I worry slightly about possibly losing content.

Vanndril

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 09:55

CCCM89 said:
I'm all for moving things to a new, expanded site, just as long as we don't lose any of the content we have up already.

Aw jeeze...I was so wrapped up in just getting the site concept working the way we'd need it to that I didn't even think about that. That's gonna be a LOOOOOT of work to repost all the crap...

And make no mistake, guys. If this does happen, short of a miracle, we'd need to upload EVERY IMAGE AGAIN, manually. And chances are that "we" will probably end up as "Mindwipe and Vanndril". In which case, it would take the two of us at least 200 hours of actual work to do that...

Goddamnit. That'd take us forever. Fucking hell.

Edit: Thought I'd mention that I grazed around google for a different CMS, hoping to find one that better fits our needs, but to no avail.

Bctytler

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 10:22

Bctytler

Hey all, long time no post...

Anyway, I like this idea. But, especially in the programming world, the best idea doesn't necessarily guarantee the best execution. I agree with Mindwipe that this NEEDS to have every ounce of functionality that the Booru does, and extend on it, for it to be even the least bit successful. The last thing we need is "just another hypnosis site".

As far as features go, everyone else has already summed it up- no point in restating.

I have some experience with web design... But to put it shortly, I'm a good architect, but a bad engineer. I can expertly design a perfect solution, but almost always fail in the execution.

I may be able to help, and I can certainly give suggestions, but to be honest, I doubt whether I would be useful. I have talent, but also a knack for failure and a distinct lack of confidence. Either way, I'm eager to assist. I'll be exploring options anyway, and if I get any ideas, I will present them.

petal

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 15:22

Overall, sounds like a great idea, but I agree that losing images (and our tags, notes, etc) would be crippling.
Now, I'm not a programmer at all, and my web design knowledge is limited to the most basic HTML, but something I've wanted to see for a long time is a website that uses the booru format as a framework and incorporates a more robust social experience. I mean, really, a booru with an attached forum (a real forum, with images and avatars and usergroups and whatever) would be good enough for me. A lot of features, like search-by-artist, search-by-resolution, etc are compatible with a booru. Tag subscriptions could have RSS attached. A system that lets artists take more control over their images' presentation than just tagging them (userpage or something?) might encourage more people to post their own work. I guess kind of like a cross between Danbooru, dA, and a forum.

Of course, that would be really hard, I bet. That's just what I've always wanted in a web community. All the features Danbooru has without "premium" restrictions, and a good forum/dA style artist community... that's a huge pile of features that I don't think anyone has tried to mash together before, and I have no idea how to do it or how hard it would be... sorry ><

BluRider

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 15:51

Some great, thoughtful replies!

I feel like maybe I've been overeager to say "let's make our own site with a CMS"... if the Booru format is so good, maybe we can build off that?

The problem is, a CMS can offer those features and a developer can set them up for us perfectly - but when it comes to extending the code used by a booru to improve the features, that could be a project that takes a lot of time and costs money.

I have access to one or two developers who are friends, and whom I could prevail upon to donate some time. I figured we could at least jumpstart a new site that way. I can't really promise their time in the long-term, and only one of them is part of our community... so whatever we want to do has to happen in short bursts (or, in their terms, sprints).

fossilbrand

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 16:36

I guess now I have to make time to post instead of lurking.

When I was looking at the photos for today I saw a news image. Always important I clicked on it and man this is some news.

My initial thoughts were "Oh my gosh this is awesome!" But with everything I have to take a step back, remove the hype goggles, and put everything into a realistic perspective.

I think it's a wonderful idea to gather together the different forms of media for our niche fetish. Hell even if it was a news source of who's posting what on what site I know I would use it to reference what sites I would check today. Having an RSS feed that is intended for everyone to use would be amazing as well. It seems that if we have blogs for stories, forums for feedback then that would satisfy the writers and people updating their master/sub relationship. If the image gallery would be comparable to that of the booru then everything should be primed to make this a reality.

~The problems I see is that I'm hearing the image gallery isn't like the booru. I've gone to see the demo but unless I tinker with it, I wont be able to truely understand it. So far it does not seem like our beloved booru system.
~I haven't seen anything as far as a host server information for this proposed website. I've dealt with one for my own personal website, but I would have no idea if it would go as far as the kind of things we post here.
~We don't have imformation on the future of these programmers. After all if something were to go wrong, how would the website be back running if it's made out of donated time. I'm not trying to belittle the time donated. I think everyone appreciates that. I just worry that this is going to be the one stop for all forms of media. This is going to be big as such needs staffing of sorts.
~We don't know if people are going to ditch everything for this new site. We just don't know all the people out there.

Now I'm just a very novice programmer with a good understanding of HTML. Here is what I see we can do to rememdy these problems.
1. If you guys can build off of the booru then that would be fantastic. I know forums aren't really that hard to add in. I just never added in a blog before. I also don't know what goes into making accounts for those or if our accounts transfer over when we sign into the booru. But this is for solutions so build of booru and it should be good. *fingers crossed*
2. Research, research, research. Create a thread on the booru that addresses this issue. Have a listed critera of what we need and get people to randomly check out a site host to see what they offer. Even if it's something we cannot use, it's good to list it in the thread so we have an updated list of what we can and cannot use.
3. There really isn't a way around this one. We really do need a staff that is up to the task of managing this new thing we are creating. There are going to be updates, problems, hell even problems with the updates that experienced programmers need to be on call for. And these programmers need to be intimately knowledgable of the coding used for the website otherwize it'll be overwhelming for someone just coming in. So unless we find dedicated people, I would sadly consider this unfeasable.
4. This one I see to be the least of our worries. If we get some of the big wigs in our community to use this site, then others will flock and join the new age of this thing. Heck I've seen this happen. In the early days of 4chan when hypnochan was live, I barely saw a thread that dealt with our fetish. The most I saw was someone new asking where the contect was then the thread was gone. Now that hypnochan is gone, I'm seeing a lot of those threads start to creep back up again in 4chan. I think people are looking for a way to stay connected and this site could be the answer.

Now I hope this site gets up and running. I hope this becomes the next hypnochan but evolved with a load of rare candies shoved in it's throat. But I think everyone knows the degree of the scope of project versus the man power we have backing this thing. Everyone seems , to me, that it's a good idea but we need to proceed with caution. I hope I helped in some way in my post. I would really like to see this thing fly but I'm also cautious about it.

P.S. To Bctytler: I'm an engineer and I'm resisting saying soo many things about architects. Of course all in jest in the nature of the business. :D

Whizziline

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 17:09

I've lurked here and even on Hypnochan for the few months before it went down, but now it's time to make an account and weigh in.

I love the idea of a one stop shop, if only for the addition of writing. I've been disappointed by the layout of mcstories time and time again.

However, the issues already stated show why making a move is a large issue.

Also, there is an additional problem in community split: If we do go ahead on that site, and it turns out not completely superior in some fashion, many may return here, or fork off to another site entirely if Hypnobooru is swapped out for the new one.

Overall, I want to love the idea of migrating to the new site, but I think it's not a terribly good idea.

Fleet

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 18:09

This sounds like a really good idea. I was on hypnochan for the last two years and really enjoyed the community and how active it was. The only problem I see with it is the images. We have so many here, and there were even more on hypnchan, are there any plans to just migrate these over, or will artists have to repost?

I do quite like the idea though that it can be bigger than the booru. A message board, more active forum, blog, etc are great ideas. I am supportive of this and eager to see it flourish!

zelinko

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 19:54

I'd rather keep the Booru alive and active. It cuts out a lot of the middleman that was a problem with Hypnochan. Tagging makes it much easier to find what you're looking for. Also it lets you hunt down sources too.

Especially since a -chan site has inherent problems of wading through tons of topics to find image while with the booru and tagging its so easy to find!

Vanndril

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 20:09

It's a long shot, but if we did try to build this thing's gallery system off of the booru, and we kept the database fields mostly the same in layout and usage as far as the image posts go, I might be able to request/purchase a package of files from booru.org that contains our database information and images. In this case, we could simply move all our content over.

That said, the booru.org administration aren't known for their immediate replies. :P It'd probably take a while to get in touch with them. Though perhaps the thought of payment would entice them into responding sooner rather than later.

As far as keeping the database the same/compatible as far as the image posts go: I figure it shouldn't be too difficult. I'd imagine that most of the changes the booru software could use would be done in the site files, anyway, rather than the database. And even if it were done in the database, most of that would be in order to incorporate the booru into the site so that users who register for the site can use their accounts for the booru segment.

Note: Keep in mind that Danbooru and Gelbooru (we use Gel source) source codes are different. I'm not sure if Danbooru uses a compatible database setup, so for what I mentioned to work, it would need to be gelbooru-source based.

Now, the only problem I see is that gelbooru's most current open source version is actually bugged, as mentioned in the last thread. It has a few problems to where it doesn't work properly, already. This would mean that, before a booru-based CMS could even be created, they would have to familiarize themselves with the booru source code and troubleshoot. Unless they intend to build one completely from scratch, but I'd imagine that would be even MORE work.

BluRider said:
I have access to one or two developers who are friends, and whom I could prevail upon to donate some time. I figured we could at least jumpstart a new site that way. I can't really promise their time in the long-term, and only one of them is part of our community... so whatever we want to do has to happen in short bursts (or, in their terms, sprints).

And that's a concern. I'm in no way ungrateful that they're willing to spend time on this for us, but, as others have mentioned, this site would need to be superior in many ways, especially the content sharing aspect of it, from the get-go in order to avoid dying before it has a chance to succeed. It would be a terrible idea to release the site under the guise of "we'll add more features later". In web stuff like this, first impressions are EVERYTHING, and WILL make or break a site.

If we want to create the site a little at a time, we'd have to not publicly host and use it until the developers can get it just perfect, even if just in their spare time as a side project. That's the only foreseeable way of getting this site concept in-use without some major feature-filled hardcore coding sprints back-to-back.

fossilbrand said:
3. There really isn't a way around this one. We really do need a staff that is up to the task of managing this new thing we are creating. There are going to be updates, problems, hell even problems with the updates that experienced programmers need to be on call for. And these programmers need to be intimately knowledgable of the coding used for the website otherwize it'll be overwhelming for someone just coming in. So unless we find dedicated people, I would sadly consider this unfeasable.

What you suggest would cost money. Unless there is a sudden revelation that we have a handful of epic web designers and programmers with tons of free time hiding in our community, that's just the reality of the matter. This here, too, is possibly my biggest worry. I'm already stretching my personal funds just paying for the BASIC hosting, assuming we use that host - I'm generally quite broke, as I'd imagine most of you can sympathize with. There is no way I could pay for even a fraction of what would be development costs with my current cash flow, and I don't think holding donations is a very good way to go with such a small community - far too unreliable.

@zelinko - I think you missed the point. :P
We're not going to be making another chan. We're trying to make a new booru-like service, with largely similar but improved features, and incorporate it into a social site for our fetish with forums, news posts on the homepage, blogs for who the hell knows, and other such cool things. Like I said, we need to retain every important feature on the booru (i.e. almost all of them), and, at the risk of sounding greedy, I'd personally settle for nothing less, because otherwise it's bound to fail as a replacement for this booru.

Indeed_That_Is_MC

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 22:25

<_<... First up, I think the name of Hypnoclan sounds awesome...

Second off, even if it's going to be complex, there are two things I would like to bring up on the subject based on what's already been said...

1. If Hypnobooru continues to grow like it has, then the best time for a switch over like this, if indeed it is a full, glorified shift-over, then it would have to be as soon as possible. The longer it is taken to decide and set up, the more work it will end up being in the end. Not to mention that it is summer, which is when people tend to be the most active, so now would most likely be the best time for such a thing to happen.

2. Would it actually BE a full on, tremendous shift that leaves Hypnobooru as an old husk of what it was...? To me, and it's always seemed like this to me, the MC community in general is just WAY TOO FREAKING SPREAD OUT. As was brought up earlier, all the places its spread to have their different uses and grant things; it seems like indeed, there needs to be a golden city created, but the golden city should also be named Capital MC or something like that. There needs to be a center that all the major parts can connect to and it can connect back to them, meaning that everything is connected and able to work together better.

...I'm sorry if I don't understand a lot of the complications, I read that there are indeed a lot of features that people would miss if it were a full change... I just thought that I would raise those two points so that they are definitely on the table... erm... thanks for reading, if you do, and Remember I guess...

That Indeed that is MC...

Alien

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 22:41

I would not move to this new site if it allowed loli/shota content. I don't care if I can block it from my personal view, I would not be comfortable using a site that hosts child porn.

Aside from that issue, so long as it at least retained the functionality the booru (which doesn't seem to be a contested issue) and the majority of the community moves as well I'd switch to the new site.

Mindwipe

Tue, Jun 25 '13, 23:30

Alien said:
I would not move to this new site if it allowed loli/shota content. I don't care if I can block it from my personal view, I would not be comfortable using a site that hosts child porn.

lol, u funny.

In any case, I'm glad to see people giving this serious thought. It would be easy to get lost in hype and scream "Do it! Do it! New site! New site!", but this is something that would be a huge undertaking with many possible issues. We only have a 9 day window left to decide, but we can't rush into this without at least understanding the risks.

That said, one thing I'd like to point out is that the booru would still be here. Even if we move all of our attention to a new site, this site would remain so long as the booru admins have no reason to delete it. Just something to bear in mind for those who are worried about us losing everything.

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